Immigration Forward – Episode 4: The Journey to Juilliard with Tharanga Goonetilleke Transcript

Episode 4: The Journey to Juilliard with Tharanga Goonetilleke

Transcript: William Menard, Tharanga Goonetilleke

Welcome to Norris Speaks: Immigration Forward, a limited podcast series delving into the latest immigration topics and issues. I’m your host, William Menard. My guest today is Tharanga Goonetilleke. Mrs. Goonetilleke is an opera singer, painter, illustrator, and educator in Northern New Jersey. Ms. Goonetilleke is the first citizen of Sri Lanka to attend the prestigious Juilliard school in New York, and has since had a wonderful career in the musical performance and visual arts. Tharanga, thank you very much for joining me today.

Thank you for having me. May I make one correction?


I’m not the first Sri Lankan. I am the first Sri Lankan woman to have attended in the Juilliard School.

I apologize. That’s still an incredible achievement.

There have been two other men before me. So, I’m the third, technically, Sri Lankan.

Still a great achievement.

Well, thank you.

Yeah. So, Tharanga I want to start today kind of where your life started and talk about your childhood in Sri Lanka. And then how did you go from growing up there and end up in the United States?

So I grew up as most kids do in Sri Lanka with, you know, we have like the parents and whoever else in your family, and in my case, it was just my sister and I. And in terms of schools, most Sri Lankan schools tend to be either girls’ schools or boys’ schools. So we grew up with basically the girl’s schools, that kind of, you know environment, quite nurtured and sheltered environment. It’s kind of common to South Asian homes. So, I honestly felt like I had a pretty happy childhood, given that that’s all I knew. But when you really think about it, like, you know, looking back, it’s hard to forget that my entire childhood, my country was in war; there was a civil war in Sri Lanka for over 30 years, almost 30 years. So that’s the time that I was born into, that environment, but that was quite normal for us, so I didn’t know any different. So that would mean that there’s curfews or, you know, bomb blasts. Things like that, that we don’t even want to speak about now, but it was quite normal. So given that, people just carry on and do their best. And within that context, given that I’m an artist now, it’s hard to even imagine the fact that I never believed that I could become a professional artist because in that sort of environment where people are basically trying to survive and make a living, et cetera, you have to be quite practical about the choices you make for your careers. So, for my sister and I, and other kids who grew up like us, we had to find jobs eventually to make a living, which did not really consist of work in the arts. So, arts were always considered a hobby. And I was hoping to go into a field in the sciences. I mean, everyone expects you to kind of become a doctor, a lawyer, engineer, kind of thing. But my interests were really about the subject of biology. So that was the path that I was headed towards, from my childhood, going into high school, and hopefully getting into university in Sri Lanka. In the meantime, parallel to that, I studied music with my mom who was a piano teacher, and that was just an extra-curricular activity. And also, I couldn’t help but always draw. Like I was always drawing things. I don’t know this was my nature, and no one discouraged me of it as long as none of that got in the way of my academics. So that was the path pretty much. And then because of my music and singing interests, there were opportunities, little opportunities, like tiny competitions here and there that were done by a school, or there’s an orchestra called the Symphony Orchestra of Sri Lanka. They had a competition for young artists,, that you could apply for. So, I would do these things just to kind of have a reason to be, you know, I loved it. It was my passion, although I very well knew that wouldn’t be a career option for me there. And my parents had no aspiration to send us abroad, because we don’t have the funds for it. Our lives were supposed to be in Sri Lanka, you know, so I wasn’t searching to leave either, because there was no need for it. We were comfortable in that crazy chaos. It was fine, you know? And then anyways, like I mentioned, one of those competitions that I took part, if you wanted, you got to sing with the orchestra. This was a symphony orchestra, Sri Lanka. And then because I did win that competition, I got an opportunity to perform this particular concert where I met this man from the United States called Douglas Weeks. He’s a pianist who was touring in South Asia on a, some kind of concert tour. And he happened to perform in the same concert as a guest artist, and he met me pretty much during rehearsal and asked me like, you know, what my plans were for my music. And it was kind of funny, because there’s no plans for music, you know? And then he was like, you know, you need to think about it, because I think there’s something there that you need to explore. And then, you know, I would be like, you know, I’m trying to get into, uh, either med school or something in biology. Like I was explaining my grand plan, and then somehow, he didn’t quite stop there. He spoke with my parents, he actually contacted my high school, all those things. And then the concert was done, and he left, he and his wife were also there. They left back to the United States, and they kept communicating with us, asking us to really consider sending me to school in the United States for music. And obviously we didn’t take it seriously at all, in that it was serious, but it was not really an option. We didn’t have the right financial backing, none of that. Right? So, it was not something that was worth pursuing. And then, he happened to be a professor at Converse College, now it’s called Converse University, in South Carolina. And he kind of advocated for me, I suppose, not because I asked — just willingly, you know — and they ended up funding me for a year in the university he was at, and asked me to come over. And then it was a very strange thing because I had never got on a plane before. Like it was, everything was new, you know? So, after a lot of discussion at my house, my parents decided to ask me, you know, what I felt like. “What do you think that you should do?” And then I said, “Well, maybe I should just go and see what it’s like.” So, and then my dad and I flew to Spartanburg, South Carolina, which is a small, you know, college town. And I decided to stay for that first year. And then they extended my scholarship for the second year, the third year, and the fourth year, and so on. So, then I ended up getting my bachelor’s at Converse College. So that’s how I got to the United States. But then there was a visa thing too. Obviously, we had to get visas to come.

Yeah. Well, what I was going to ask you next is two things. One, what was it like being in the U.S.? After never stepping on a plane, I’m guessing, you know, because Sri Lanka is an island, that means you’ve never left Sri Lanka at …

I never left Sri Lanka, no.

 … at that point. And then the first trip you make is to a suburb of south in South Carolina. So, what was the kind of the culture shock that you hit when you got here? And, then after that, what was the visa process like for you?

I had all these ideas of what it might be like, you know, the United States, as we see on TV. You know, watching Friends or, you know, whatever, and those things were all happening in Sri Lanka. You know, you would see all these shows. But the thing was, when I came to the U.S., the first thing I noticed was that, and this too was the south, too. Right? And there’s all this talk about what the south is like and the north is like of the United States. In a really beautiful way, I didn’t feel that I was an outsider when I went to my university and its environment. I’m not sure if it’s because it was like a sort of a university environment. I have to say there were not too many international students, not even colored people, just a few. So, but no one treated me badly. Nothing like, oh, like in a strange way. I have to say that not too many people knew where Sri Lanka was, but that’s, that’s not uncommon anywhere in the world. Now that I know, you know, because after having lived many years after. So apart from that, I mean, people would get confused with, like, my name and my country’s name. My name was Sri Lanka or, um, I’m Sri Lanka,

Right, right.

you know, that kind of thing. I felt it was kind of odd, but at the same time, I felt like I was sort of having this new mission. Like I have to speak about my country, you know, that kind of feeling. But anyway, I felt really at home there for whatever the reason, and people are quite welcoming. But the visa process, the first year, obviously, cause I was only given a scholarship for the first year. It was kind of, I suppose, normal to get a visa for one year because there’s no funding for the years, although the program that I was in was to be for four years. But then after that, of course you have to come back to Sri Lanka to get your visa renewed. You can’t get it renewed from the U S. The funding and the scholarships were, you know, extended for the years to come.


So that was a difficult thing to do for, especially an international student, because it costs a lot of money to go to come back, you know. I knew if that were to happen, I had to collect money. So, I would be going to school and doing all the work study hours. And I used to get paid $5 an hour. That was the minimum wage at the time. So anyways, I would collect something like $1,500 to buy my tickets. So that’s a lot of money, you know, but still. This was 2001. And then I did come home to get my visa renewed for the second year, because I did get my scholarship, you know, extended and all that. So school went fine. I mean, I never had an issue at school or with the community there. Everyone was extremely supportive and kind, and I even forgot that some, most people were white and I was not, it was amazing. I mean, like I speak about that even today because it’s, it’s something that people don’t know. You know, they don’t know that. They think that there’s like the whole racism issue and everything, but I’m not saying that that’s everywhere, but in that case, it was true for me. So, and then on my second year’s trip of being a sophomore, while I was in Sri Lanka at the visa office, even after like, you know, having the transcripts and everything from the year before and everything was fine. Somehow, like in the visa process, I don’t know if they really didn’t believe that I was going in for studying like opera, like vocal studies. I wasn’t quite sure what the reason behind it was, but they asked me to sing at the visa office, which was …

Like in front of the officer

 …Yeah like in that little cubicle. That’s like a little, …


… a window, the glass window between you and the officer. And then I actually thought he was funny. And then I just giggled. I thought it was like, sort of, you know, he didn’t really mean for me to do it, but he was just like, go on, go on. Like I remember. And I was like, and it felt kind of weird because I don’t know, it felt like sort of an interrogation of some kind to prove that this was all, this was real, documents or whatever. I mean, I didn’t want to not get my visa.


It was just like, okay. And I sang. It was just odd, you know. I don’t know, like, I’m not sure if it’s something that happens to others. I have never heard that anywhere else or from others, but not that I know too many people from that part of the world, you know, coming for this particular kind of a degree program. So anyway, and then actually it happened to me again my fourth year coming back as well. So, so twice it’s happened to me. So that was weird. I mean, I never got rejected from my visa, not even once, at any point. Um, but still it was sort of like you go in being kind of nervous because you’re always proving that it’s actually, all that you’re saying is true, but you shouldn’t have to do that, I feel. You know what I mean?

Did you think any differently of the government or the process in that way, did you feel that –that you had been subjected to something that you shouldn’t have been? How did you feel in that moment? And then after you thought about it what did you think?

I do feel like it should not have happened because, I mean, there’s no reason for it to happen. You know, it’s not like if you’re going for a different purpose, you still have to demonstrate something. You know what I mean? Like it doesn’t feel right to have to, I mean, they’ve asked you for certain documentation. And they can also like, you know, call or do whatever background checks, to make sure that those documents are valid, if they need to. This was a bit of a push, I feel. And you know what, if I was sick that day or, and I couldn’t sing, you know, all those things, one should not have to face that. At that time, you know, I was so young and like, I would’ve done whatever, when they asked, but I probably wouldn’t have said anything to them. I think even now, you don’t want your visa to get rejected, right? Because if you did, then it stays on your record as a visa being rejected. And then if you want to get visas to either the U.S. or anywhere else, there’s always going to be that mark, sort of, that somewhere you’ve been rejected a visa, and then why, and then things get complicated. So you just have to comply with it. And so you’re always in this sort of a vulnerable place. That shouldn’t be the case, you know, it’s just an application process. And obviously the visa officers are doing their jobs. They have to be careful about who should enter. I mean, all that is, I think it’s very good. I mean, it’s, I mean, I wouldn’t want anyone that should not be in any country to enter it. You know that’s not okay. But it shouldn’t be pushed to certain unnecessary lengths, you know,

But you did, as you said, you got your visa, you, you came back. You know, you’ve come to the U.S. many times. And after school you went, from you know Sri Lanka to South Carolina, and now you went from South Carolina to living in New York City. Was that an additional culture shock? Yeah. What was it like being there?

It was not my intention to live in the U.S. and, you know, at least when I first moved to South Carolina, my goal was to get my degree, go back home. And I wanted to maybe start my own school of music or something like that. But in the process, during my third year at Converse College, I took part in the Metropolitan Opera, concert auditions, which is like a competition for every state. It’s sort of like something that most teachers, while you’re in college, encourage you to do. So that happened and I won for the district. So when you do, there’s a bunch of the judges in the panel who are not from that state or the district and mine happened to be some of them, some of the judges on the panel happened to be From the Juilliard faculty. I wasn’t intending to go apply to Juilliard, or to any other school in the U.S. for that matter. I mean that is, I like to say that because a lot of times people assume that when people apply to move to the U.S. or to other more developed countries than my own, we moved because we want to leave our countries. We want a better life that’s not given to us over there. But not everyone is that way. Like, I didn’t want to leave my country, because I still love it with all the troubles and everything. It’s home. It’s my food. It’s, you know, I didn’t, that was not my intention. It’s not, like we’re not searching for the American dream. This just sort of happened to me, and it happened to be a subject that I could not study in my country because it doesn’t exist. So I came here to do this degree program, you know, and while I was there, even during my undergrad, I signed up for a double major because I did music and biology because I knew I’m going back, you know. So in case my music school idea doesn’t work out because there’s not a lot of scope there for musicians, I had something to do there. Because I had a lot of interests. Music is a huge part of me, and art, and everything. I feel like a lot of times when people move to these different countries, they think that, you know, you’re leaving behind something you don’t want, but you don’t, you know? So anyway, so during my third year I won this competition and the judges happened to be part of the Juilliard faculty. And they actually encouraged me to apply for a master’s, and I was like, oh, well, I’m thinking about going home. And then they’re like, well, if you decide to, you should consider applying to the Juilliard school. And then I knew of the Juilliard school because of Rohan DeSilva, who was the first person to get into Juliet from Sri Lanka. I love his work and I used to go watch him perform when I was a kid, when he visited Sri Lanka. And I was like going to apply to the Juilliard School, oh my goodness, you know, this is weird, you know, like that’s not something for me. And then I came back to my teacher, I told him, you know, the judges spoke with me. They said this. And my teacher, Dr. Hay, my Converse College voice teacher, was like, you know, since they said so, you should just apply and see what happens. So that’s exactly what happened. I just applied to see what happens and then I did get in, and then I had to make this choice about, should I stay for another two years, you know, four years at Converse and two more years? And then, you know, again, after much discussion, and also they gave me all the funds I needed, too, so it wasn’t a question of money at that point. So I did decide to stay. And I  really wanted to stay, but then there was, you know, there’s all this, like, you know, whatever it is, it’s not home. And then again, the visa matters, and every year you deal with the visa matters. And it doesn’t matter what school you get into. I mean, Converse is a smaller school, lesser known, but still a really good school, but Juilliard everybody knows. Still, you still have to go to the same process which is fine. I understand it, but for a brown person, when you’re in that visa office, it’s almost as if you feel like they don’t trust that any of the documents are real. Like, you get that sense? And I don’t know why, but that’s just how you feel, like you’re in some kind of a prosecutor process.


So, but then you just have to like, you know, stand your ground and, uh believe in what you are. So that’s how it’s been.

What was the conversation like that you had with your family when you decided to stay?

So obviously it’s a difficult thing, because our family is very, very close knit, so they don’t want you away. But at the same time, they also did realize that I had this sort of, I don’t know, this sort of thing that makes me perform, that there was no scope for me over there. There was not enough of an opportunity or an audience even. And so they were happy for me, and they did leave the choice to me, you know, and I did choose to stay because I remember walking into my Juilliard audition. I just felt so right. You know, a lot of times people ask me, did you feel the shock of like, you know, New York? And I remember getting lost in the subway, not knowing where the 66th street stop was. And something my dad always taught me was  “manage your time.” Well, and that, I think, is probably my best strength if I have one.  And I, because I’ve been taught that from the time I was little, I went early to be able to get lost. So I never was in stress about getting to my audition. So I went on …

You can be lost in the subway for hours, especially when this, when the train just skips all the stops without telling you.

Exactly. I think I actually got on an express instead of the one or something. So it didn’t stop on 66. I ended up, on like in Harlem or something like that, but anyway, I ended up, I came back, I figured it out. But when I did walk into the school, even before I got into Juilliard, you know, this was the audition. I just felt like it was just the fit. It was right. You know, I don’t know. It was just sort of an intuition. I don’t know.  I didn’t feel like I came from this other place that nobody else has probably, you know, thought about it. It was right. You know, you just know. And I hadn’t even gotten in. And then that day was like, you know, a big process. You have, like, auditions, and call backs, and interviews. So it was amazing. And I had a great time in the process, and I felt — I suppose, when you’re an artist and you meet other artists, like you just feel like you fit, you know? So I never felt that feeling of not fitting in, because it wasn’t about where you were from. It was about what you are, you see. You have something to bring to the plate. And I felt like I, someone was there to receive it. You know, that was the sense I got. But did I ever face any like difficult situations? Yes, I did. And that’s mostly not within school walls, like I think in South Carolina or in New York at Juilliard, like when you go out to perform so while you’re a student, you can still get work permits and get hired professionally to perform in different places, you know? And that happens often. For international students, you have to get permission.  Per concert, you know, so it’s a bit of a hassle, but that’s something that one has to do. And that was always done through like the student services and, you know, the people help you out for that. And when you, when you go out and you have to stay somewhere, like you’re not in one of the cities or in a college town, people assume, they never think that I’m one of the singers. They always think that I’m like either a tech person, …


So those kinds of things happen. And then this is kind of embarrassing for them, and not so much for me. I mean, I don’t want to say I’ve gotten used to it, because I don’t want to be used to it, but now I’ve gotten better at sort of like enlightening the person who feels that way. I feel like it’s more awkward for the other party than it is to me. So those kinds of things do happen. Somebody one time, I remember, I was hosted by this really lovely family. And I was coming back from rehearsal or something. And then the neighbor looked over the fence and asked me if I had time to help her out. And I asked her about what? She thought that I was the house’s help.

Oh Yeah.

Okay, because she wanted some things to be done. They just like assume by the way you appear to them and in their own biases or whatever. And then I had to politely say, I’m not here to help. I’m actually working with such and such opera. And they’re always surprised by it. Again, there are so few of us who are in the opera, so I can’t blame people, but at the same time, no one should assume anything about anyone, you know? So those kinds of things do happen.

It sounds to me like you’ve kind of, from everything you’ve described, adapted so well, and I don’t even know if adapt is the right word. It sounds to me like, you’ve just moved from one thing to the next and you said, okay, I’m here now. And you know, I’m going to make this, you know, work like this, or I feel comfortable here. And then I feel comfortable doing this. So I’m going to continue with it. And, you know, unlike certain immigration stories, come with like a very deliberate attempt of get out of something, you’ve kind of gone with the flow and things change, and then you find something new, and you go with that. What’s interesting though, is, and we talked a little bit off the air about this, and I want it to bring it up, in your visual work. So, you know, we’ve talked about some of the singing, the operatic work that you’ve done, but in your visual work, many of the images that you have are like sole figures in, in space. And is that something that that’s been influenced by your life? Are there points where you just feel — It’s kind of, you know, you were the first woman and the third person from Sri Lanka to go to Juilliard. People in New York often feel like despite the number of people that they’re the only one like them, or they’re alone, or it kind of lends itself to anonymity. Do you feel that’s influenced your, your visual work?

Yeah, I think it has. I mean, I didn’t notice it myself until after the fact, you know, you sort of, you keep drawing stuff or painting things, and then you realize that there’s all these patterns in all of them and they’re not going away or they’re evolving and not necessarily just a phase, you know, so that there are like certain elements, like you mentioned, like the, the sole figure, like there’s a white kind of a white, when I say white, I mean like a real actual literal white person, just like a, like hanging in my paintings. And then in my line drawings too, none of the people are colored in, they’re almost like hollow so that it could be anybody from any part of the world. So I think it is coming from that same place that I’m coming from, where I feel that my journey has been such, that I’ve been sort of thrown into situations where I never felt, or I chose perhaps not to be like the odd one out because the essence of people is more the same than not, I feel like no matter where you’re from, like what, what we yearn for, what we want, what we want from each other and what we don’t want. The fundamental stuff is very much the same. It’s just Like, that outer layer might be different. And I don’t care about that outer layer as much, you know? So I think that’s probably why I actually paint, because it reminds me of that all the time. And when I’m singing even an art song or a lieder by any composer, like none of the composers that I sing about or sing from the works of, is a brown South Asian, you know, everybody’s like some European guy or girl, mostly guys. But, uh, but when I read that work, I’m not thinking that, I’m thinking, what is he trying to say? What is she trying to say? And how would I say it from my perspective as a human being, you know? So, like I did not consciously make a choice to create these,  you know, ghostly figures in my artwork, or colorless people. It’s still, that’s what a person is to me. And that’s what I would like everyone to think of me as also, and when I’m in conversation with anyone at all, that’s what I see. And that is, I think, more real than the other way around. So I hope I answered your question.

Yeah. And I want to end with this question, which it sounds like you’re going to have, again, the way you’ve had throughout this conversation, a very different take on this than many people. Do you know what I see a lot, is that the experiences of the first generation that traveled to the United States and then the first-generation Americans, and the transition, and the differences between the parents of the person who came to the U.S., and then the children, and how different that is. You know, now you have two kids, you’re living in the United States. What are some of the differences that you see between your kids and your parents, but also what are some of those same — what are some of the similarities? What are some of those things  that have transitioned without the color or the outside appearance that you try to extract from some of your visual work?

So, one of the things that I’ve tried to hopefully instill in my kids, for example. I do want them to know where we come from, where I come from. My husband’s Indian, so we do come from two different backgrounds. So we try to tell them about those things and give them the knowledge. It’s still not them. Right? So they have to still find themselves in the world the same way we found ourselves in this new world compared to where we were originally from. Right. So I think a lot of families who do come from somewhere else to here, they try very hard to sort of hold on to some of the things from their backgrounds as if they’re going to go away somewhere. But they don’t leave you. You don’t have to hold onto them as if they are these fleeting things. They don’t leave you. Like I’m very Sri Lankan. If you ask for my food tastes or what I like to wear, or how I think about how conservative I am in certain things. Like I am very Sri Lankan. And so perhaps even more so than the modern, like the woman back in Sri Lanka, you know, so that, that I don’t have to hold onto it. It’s who I am. And I don’t have to prove it to anyone. I don’t have to instill that to my children. But I do find that I have lots of friends, obviously from similar backgrounds, who live in these areas where I do, where I live, but that, that I feel like that’s a struggle. Like it’s like they’re trying to create that in their homes or something, but I feel like that’s kind of a losing battle because the child’s soul is, you know, it’ll find its place, and they will find the roots if they want to as well. I approach it differently. And then if it was talking about my visual work in terms of that, like, for example, one time my daughter wanted a painting for herself about Rapunzel, I think it was. Yeah. And then I painted the Rapunzel without thinking about it. Right. I didn’t like plan it as such. Like hair. That was really long, as Rapunzel would have, but the hair was extremely colorful as opposed to this golden streak of hair, you know, because I, in some ways I — like my daughter would have liked, you know, a costume of Rapunzel with this blonde wig, which looks so unnatural on her. And I didn’t like that because I mean, Rapunzel could be anybody, you know? So this one, multicolored hair, person was like beautiful. And like, she decided to wear ribbons in her hair, like to make it long with all colors of hair. I mean, those things, I think, matter, especially if you’re coming from another country, you have to make it stick. Because now you are part of this country, right? You are, because this is your community. This is where you live. This is the people that you’re with, and you want to give something to your community, and also, you know, take what the community holds instead of only hanging out with people from your, your background or, you know, those kinds of things. I think being open and really thinking of what matters in life, you know, the fundamental stuff,  relationships, friendships, love, education, those are the things that one should be concentrating on. And of course there’s the practical methods like visas. That’s always going to be there, but if you dwell on it in a way that it actually hinders you or makes you bitter, I feel you kind of lose the whole point. Right? But then you will speak up for what you think you believe in. Like, for example, I really feel like when I was in the right after finishing school and I wanted, like there were companies who were wanting to hire me, but they couldn’t hire me because as a freelancer, you get hired per gig. You know, and then you’re required to have some kind of like an O one visa, or you can’t get hired. The catch is that without a visa, you can’t get hired; but you can’t get a visa without being hired. So it’s very tricky. So, I mean, I feel like if there was a system where, I don’t know, like it depends on your visa being given based on your, your credibility or the number of years you’ve lived here or, you know, your, like how many degrees have you had, like, if there’s some kind of point system, kind of like in the UK. So having that, those things would just make things a little bit more, I don’t know, clear, so that people can actually carry on with the good work that they intended to. So, yeah.

Well, Tharanga, we’re going to have to leave it there and you know, once again, I want to thank you for telling us about your life story and giving us your perspective on the immigration process, which you know is different for everyone. Yeah. And it was really incredible to hear yours, even with some of the odd hiccups of having to, um, sing at an embassy. Although I believe you told me after you sang, that many people who were waiting there clapped for you. So I hope that at least made you feel a little better.

I was like, whoa. Yeah. I mean, you haven’t really. I walked out of the cubicle. Yes. That’s true.

Right. You know, once again, thank you for joining me and to our audience. Uh, please hang on to the end of the podcast because we’re going to share a little clip of Tharanga singing, and, and I’m sure it will, you know, everyone will enjoy that. So thank you again for joining us.

Thank you for having me.

This has been Norris Speaks: Immigration Forward, a limited podcast series delving into the latest immigration topics and issues. I want to thank my guest one final time, Tharanga Goonetilleke, and you the listener for being a part of the conversation. Be sure to tune in next time for a brand-new episode. And if you’d like to reach out to me directly, please email Or would you like to learn more about our work? Feel free to visit our Thank you for listening. And if you enjoyed the program, we would appreciate it if you could leave us a five-star review on your favorite podcast platform. We hope you can join us next time!

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